The Science of Mentorship

Bethany Brookshire (00:11):
Not every mentoring relationship is a smooth sailing one full of mutual understanding. Maybe you are listening and can think of a time where you and your mentor didn't see eye to eye on something. Perhaps you always felt some kind of tension with your advisor, or perhaps you never experienced that, but you saw one of your classmates feel lost after an uncomfortable or negative situation with their laboratory supervisor. Mentees are in a unique position. They're relying on someone with more experience and power to support them through their STEMM journey. Someone that may think differently, react differently and value different things. For many mentoring relationships, this may be exactly why a mentor was sought out. To get a new perspective. But sometimes conflict happens and it can have a massive impact on both the mentee and the mentor.
(01:02):
This is the Science of Mentorship, a podcast from the National Academies Of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine that explores the mentoring skills that can and should be learned to unleash everyone's potential in science, technology, engineering, mathematics and medicine. I'm your host Bethany Brookshire.
(01:26):
I was thinking about all the conversations I had with students and postdocs. There were lots of wonderful stories where a mentor offered understanding and support, but nearly every person also had a moment where they were negatively impacted by a mentor or advisor.
Dr. Jeremy Waisome (01:40):
I had a very difficult PhD experience.
Bethany Brookshire (01:45):
That's Dr. Jeremy Waisome again, who we've heard from in previous episodes. Dr. Waisome's PhD experience was heavily impacted by her relationship with her advisor.
Dr. Jeremy Waisome (01:55):
And in hindsight, it's really trivial for me to like recognize all of the signs that were there that made it hard for me to persist and remain in the program. I had an awful advisor relationship. I was unhappy.
Bethany Brookshire (02:14):
In an earlier episode, Dr. Waisome talked a little bit about this experience.
Dr. Jeremy Waisome (02:19):
He wanted me to look at him as the source of all knowledge. Like I'm the advisor, I hold all of the power. I'm the person in charge. Everything needs to go through me.
Bethany Brookshire (02:32):
Dr. Waisome was a well known student on campus. She had done her undergraduate studies at this institution. She had built a lot of connections and a solid reputation, but if anything, it seemed like this concerned her advisor. It got to the point where they were discussing her research and the steps she was taking in her career, and he asked her not to repeat the conversations to anyone else.
Dr. Jeremy Waisome (02:53):
Like if I didn't sign an NDA, if I didn't sign an NDA, most PhD research isn't I need to sign a non-disclosure agreement. So I should be able to have a conversation with other people about the conversations that I'm having with my employer, as long as they aren't personal conversations that you're sharing with me. If it relates to like what I'm doing, the work that I'm conducting and how you feel about it, I should be able to share. So I really felt like I was being surveilled instead of supported. I felt like I was fighting an invisible fight. There were these hidden barriers that I was unaware of and I kept running into them over and over again. And the bar just kept moving on what was good, what was acceptable, and ultimately I was fatigued and felt my self-worth was gone. Just like I was constantly running and going nowhere.
(03:55):
I am black. I'm a woman. I was one of the youngest students in the lab. I was well known and I'm also just not afraid to speak up and speak out when I see things that I feel are wrong. And so having all of those things intersecting along with a number of other things going on, I had a difficult time navigating the relationship. And even though he was someone who is underrepresented as well, it was almost like the expectations for me were different than the expectations for other students in the lab. And that became a lot for me to deal with.
Bethany Brookshire (04:41):
At another point, her advisor flat out told her that she was difficult to work with, implying that she was the problem in their relationship.
Dr. Jeremy Waisome (04:49):
And then he went on to say like, "I've had other female students, I've had students like you." Those are the words. "Like you." And I've won awards for mentoring. Look at my award. And he points at an award on the bookshelf and it took everything in me to remain silent and to not engage in that conversation. Because when someone is driven by ego, the worst possible thing you can do is tell them the truth. But ultimately what I had to do was remove my self-worth from the words that he would project towards me about me, because I'm not who he says I am. I'm not who anyone says that I am. Like I define who I am for myself. And reframing my mind around that helped me cope in moments where I'm literally sitting here listening to someone tell me they're like the world's greatest mentor when I don't even consider them my mentor. And I have no desire to, especially after a conversation like that.
Bethany Brookshire (06:04):
For many students, when they encounter a negative experience with their mentor, it can be easy for them to think that maybe they're overreacting, maybe it's all in their head, maybe this is just how things are. Dr. Waisome kept these experience to herself for a long time. But after a while, she knew it was time to see if anyone else was experiencing similar situations.
Dr. Jeremy Waisome (06:24):
At some point, I got tired of like not talking about it with my other grad student friends in the lab. And I called a group meeting and I basically said, does anyone else feel horrible in this lab? Like, am I the only one who feels like they're going nowhere? And literally every person in the lab was like I also feel this way. And it was really validating to hear their experiences too. But then what was even more validating was when they said, but we see that most of the difficulties are targeted towards you and we don't understand why.
Bethany Brookshire (07:01):
This validation was what Dr. Waisome needed. Others in the lab also had negative experiences and they noticed that Dr. Waisome had been having an even more difficult time. Eventually the tension came to a boiling point. These things couldn't go unchecked anymore.
Dr. Jeremy Waisome (07:16):
At the very end, we kind of had a heart to heart conversation. I was in tears and extremely frustrated and basically said I don't know what you want. I don't know how to address the things that you've asked me to do. I come to meetings, I write things down, I record conversations because you've given me permission to. I've sought help from other students. I've started meeting with you more regularly. I've done everything that you've asked me to do. And every time I do something, it's not right. I literally can't move forward and I don't know what to do. And instead of giving me clarity and direction, I received back critique. And the critiques were around my presence, like physically being in the office and doing work. And that I was overly engaged in activities. I said I'm not physically in my office because I'm in the lab, and I'm not on campus sometimes because I'm writing and I prefer to write elsewhere. And I bring you the things that you need to see.
(08:34):
But he had created this whole narrative about who I was in his head from past experiences with me. And we're like five years in at this point. And I'm saying to him, "You asked me to stop being involved. I'm not involved in any organization right now. I've not gone to a conference. I've not gone to a meeting. I stopped." So all of this stuff that you're saying is not true. And you would know that if you took the time to get to know me. And I think that's when it clicked for him that there was a misalignment with who he thought I was and that what I was doing and the actual work that was being done and what I was doing, and that changed his perspective. It was one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do because for a long time, I just didn't feel very safe.
Bethany Brookshire (09:32):
Dr. Waisome's mentor had decided for himself who Dr. Waisome was. He didn't critically reflect and try to actually get to know who the real Dr. Waisome is until it was too late. This situation marked Dr. Waisome. For a long time, she struggled with mental health issues. She received counseling as she completed her PhD program. And unfortunately the relationship never got better. Dr. Waisome was supported by other mentors who after this terrible experience, helped her figure out which steps to take next in her career. Dr. Waisome's story, sadly, isn't an isolated incident. Students in STEMM everywhere have encountered situations like these, where an advisor or mentor comes up with their own narrative about who their mentee is or who their mentee should be without consulting the student about their own dreams and desires. When this happens, students often don't know how to move forward and suffer from a lot of self-doubt.
(10:32):
Not every negative mentoring experience is as severe as Dr. Waisome's situation. I talked with Carrie Schaffer in a few of our previous episodes. Carrie never had what she would call a bad mentoring experience, but she has experienced some conflict with one of her mentors when she realized that they just weren't working towards the same goals.
Carrie Schaffer (10:51):
I think most of the, kind of the major mentors in my life have also been supervisors. So you're simultaneously trying to work through a project or deliver on something. And so their ability to be that mentor to you just kind of, I guess, is outweighed by their need to be a supervisor, I suppose. And then not having clear communication, not having clear expectations then prevents them from being that mentor.
Bethany Brookshire (11:20):
For Carrie, these unclear expectations sometimes made it difficult for her to know how to move forward with her research.
Carrie Schaffer (11:27):
I think everyone kind of has a situation like that with their graduate mentor, where I would come in with an idea or some way to kind of interpret my data, and it'd be kind of brushed aside and it'd be like, okay, no, you should look after this. You should go after this. So I'd spend a few weeks, maybe a month kind of going down one road, that wouldn't necessarily pan out. And then essentially my advisor would bring up this original idea that I had. And so it was like, okay, either you're not listening to what I originally had said, or it was just always very unclear about what that dynamic exactly was.
Bethany Brookshire (12:14):
I asked Carrie why she thinks her mentor acted in this way, or if she thought they had negative intentions behind their actions.
Carrie Schaffer (12:20):
I don't think there was ever any malice in it, but it happened so frequently that it ended up, in me just having to understand how to kind of navigate the personalty differences and how to navigate that relationship and kind of the way in which I broached information and broached topics. So I feel like I did the work on my end to make sure that that relationship was maintained and projects could move forward. And I kind of understand how to balance those relationships if that makes sense.
Bethany Brookshire (12:55):
Carrie's mentor didn't have malicious intentions and Carrie was able to learn how to navigate a tricky relationship. In my conversations, it seemed like a lot of students had moments with their mentors where they could see their mentor didn't intend to create tension. But at the same time, their mentor didn't seem to check what their intentions were and if they aligned with the needs of their students. [Isaiah Cypher 00:13:17] from our last episode also had an experience with his mentor who thought their intentions were in the right place, but it turned out they were causing more harm than good.
Isaiah Cypher (13:26):
Being in the lab, we have these end of semester reviews. And in these end of semester reviews, we are able to just state any feedback that we may have. And the first few years of graduate school were a struggle for me to be quite honest. I was just kind of working my way up, crawling my way back out of that, just getting it together. And I think there had been sort of like a dynamic. We'd sometimes get the feedback that like you're improving, but like maybe not specifically at the rate that we might want you to, or that you need to. I kind of got to the point where I just had to say, and I used the review as the mechanism for that, that that's not helpful.
Bethany Brookshire (14:22):
Isaiah was able to see that maybe his mentor didn't even recognize that his processes and methods weren't helpful.
Isaiah Cypher (14:28):
I see that there's no malice behind it, that this is just the way in which he was socialized. Like this is how he was socialized into commenting on people's performance. Maybe this is what he tells himself. And I can acknowledge, and I can hold those two things. That this is his way of getting his point across. And it's not something that my brain receives very well. And yeah, and I think we were able to just talk about that. And I think it really improved our ... Just being able to say that, it improved our relationship.
Bethany Brookshire (15:17):
Sometimes mentors may have good intentions, but they don't realize their mentee is still not getting what they need. Isaiah experienced this with a different mentor.
Isaiah Cypher (15:26):
I remember when I was there thinking about it, like this person is like my rich absentee father, where they get a lot done for you. They can open up a lot of doors. They know people, they're very well connected, but they're just not the most present. So it wasn't any sort of difficulties with the interaction themselves, like interpersonally. It was fine. It was just that it just wasn't very hands on. And I think that in that stage, figuring things out and figuring out what you want, having someone who is a little bit more engaged, I think could be helpful.
Bethany Brookshire (16:16):
Regardless of why a mentoring relationship is tense or turns into a negative experience for the mentee or the mentor, what's important to recognize is that these negative experiences can make it difficult for students and postdocs to know how to move forward in their career. Like Carrie and Isaiah experienced, there will be times where conflict with a mentor just happens. Sometimes it's unavoidable. But what makes a difference is if the two parties are willing to look at their intentions and examine their perspectives to see how they might be affecting the other person.
(16:54):
Sometimes negative mentoring experiences happen because of personality conflicts, or like we just mentioned, unchecked intentions. But other times, outside circumstances can heavily impact a mentee's experience with their mentor. Dr. Michael Green saw how uncontrollable circumstances can affect a mentoring relationship. In an earlier episode, Dr. Green told me about how the COVID-19 pandemic affected his mentoring experience while he worked in a lab in New York City.
Dr. Michael Green (17:20):
It was actually with COVID and science essentially shut down in New York City, or just New York City shut down in general. There was an expectation that we would come into the lab to check on things. And we were uncomfortable with that. And so we needed to voice our opinions with our PI that we don't want to do this. And we could tell that in a conversation that it wasn't well received. And it was a little shocking to see that the priority was the research and not our safety and wellbeing.
Bethany Brookshire (17:52):
Based on conversations Dr. Green had with previous postdocs from the same lab, he wasn't expecting this kind of tension with his advisor, especially during a public health emergency where everyone was unsure how the virus would impact them.
Dr. Michael Green (18:05):
I don't think it was intentional. I think it could be assigned COVID for one. When we first met and I talked to a postdoc who left the lab, he described the environment as, "She's a unique cookie, but she's a good scientist, which is what she is. And you're going to learn how to write very well and efficiently and you'll do good work." But then I think when COVID happened, it just changed the game completely to where you don't see each other anymore, or your expectations change. Because my son, when this started, was two and he is a high risk because he was a two year old and kids touch everything. So me working in a hospital environment, my priorities changed. I'm not trying to bring whatever this is home.
(18:58):
Like, especially, we didn't know what it was, and New York was the epicenter. I don't want to be here, I'm going to come and wear eight pairs of gloves. But just you want me to be here when I don't need to be here is not in my best interest. But at the same time, the work needed to be done, which I understand and respect. It's just, I think how you talk about it. Because sometimes we'd have conversations and the way that she would present her displeasure with what we were doing was not the appropriate [inaudible 00:19:33] do it.
Bethany Brookshire (19:34):
Dr. Green could kind of understand why his mentor was reacting in this way and knew how much incredible stress everyone was under. But he felt like his mentor could have addressed these issues more appropriately.
Dr. Michael Green (19:46):
So being able to listen, like have active listening skills and be able to communicate without sounding condescending or without being off putting was a big skillset that needed to be worked on. And so if you're me, who's like, my family's important. I don't need to be here because one, they're shutting research down. So what are we doing? Just having lab meetings and writing papers. And I literally just started my postdoc, so I wasn't even fully able to do anything yet. So in my mind, it was a very unnecessary risk a lot.
Bethany Brookshire (20:23):
Dr. Green knew the pandemic influenced this experience with this particular mentor. But at the same time, he was curious what would've happened if there was no pandemic. Would his advisor still express displeasure for his choices or how he wanted to prioritize family? At the end of the day, it didn't matter why this negative mentoring experience happened. It happened and it left an imprint on Dr. Green.
Dr. Michael Green (20:44):
And it's sad to see that a lot of people you speak to have had similar experiences and it blows my mind that there needs to be some sort of system or some type of, I commonly refer to it like a Yelp of postdocs or PIs to say no, I don't want to work there because being a scientist is a big part of your life, it's a large chunk of change to where you either put your life on pause or you leave and you feel like you failed. When really, if you had a better environment that supported you, you wouldn't necessarily feel the pressures that sometimes people put on you.
Bethany Brookshire (21:20):
The students I've talked with all have different experiences. Experiences that are all too common. But after they each told me their stories, I realized that there are a lot of factors that can contribute to negative mentoring experiences. In previous episodes, we talked about expectations and boundaries being breached, or how important it is to build trust with your mentor. Sometimes students can confront their mentors and work through these problematic issues together. But other times like Dr Waisome's experience, the relationship is left broken with one or all parties negatively affected. Now I want to acknowledge that this episode has been a bit of a downer. We've mostly just heard about students' negative experiences. But sometimes we have to identify the problems and what causes them before we can think about ways to fix them.
(22:07):
In our next episode, we're going to hear more from more students about their negative mentoring experiences that shaped them. But we aren't going to leave it there. We're going to also hear about what mentors can do to prevent these experiences from happening. Until then, you can learn more about the science of effective mentoring in STEMM at nas.edu/mentoring. If you're enjoying The Science of Mentorship, please tell your friends, colleagues, students, teachers, and of course your mentors and mentees about our podcast. And help others discover it by giving us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Thanks for listening.

This transcript was exported on Jan 12, 2024 - view latest version here.

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