The Science of Mentorship

Bethany Brookshire (00:11):
In our last episode, students told me about the times where their mentoring relationships didn't go as well as they hoped. Some of the students disagreed with their mentors over a few issues. Other students just had a completely negative and ineffective relationship with their supervisors. A lot of these students were left confused, unhappy, and unsure of how to move forward in their STEMM career.
After I heard their stories, I was left with these questions, how did they respond to these situations? Were they able to bounce back in their career? And what could be done to prevent these negative experiences as much as possible? This is The Science of Mentorship, the podcast from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine, that explores the mentoring skills that can and should be learnt to unleash everyone's potential in science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and medicine. I'm your host, Bethany Brookshire, just a warning for our listeners, we do discuss sexual harassment in this episode.
After hearing some of the stories from students in our last episode, I learned that like the families in Tolstoy's Anna Karenina, most happy mentoring relationships are alike, but each unhappy mentoring experience is unhappy in its own way. Negative mentoring experiences can be caused by many different factors, like personality differences, misuse of power, or by circumstances that are out of the mentees and mentors control.
And sometimes, students may have a negative experience with their mentor because the relationship or the lab environment, just isn't what they're looking for. Trayvon Giles, a PhD student who we heard from in a previous episode, had this kind of experience. Trayvon was used to working in labs where there was a lot of collaboration between students and their lab supervisors. He liked it when his mentors were present, interacting with students and getting to know them. But at one point, he started working in a lab that was pretty different from what he was used to.
Trayvon Giles (02:03):
The reason I didn't have a good experience, had more to do with the lab culture and less to do with Dr. Bennett himself. I think Dr. Bennett is amazing, but his mentorship style in terms of his lab, only center around lab meeting. And so that was the only time people in the lab truly interacted with him. And the lab culture as a whole, wasn't very family or socially oriented. People came in to just work on their project and they left.
There was no sort of cross mentorship or collaboration. And so I went from a lab where it was only me and the PI, and we worked on everything together, to a lab where, I only met Dr. Bennett twice that summer. So to me, that was a drastic change.
Bethany Brookshire (02:49):
Because of this kind of lab culture, it was difficult for Trayvon to understand why he was doing the work he was doing.
Trayvon Giles (02:56):
I just genuinely did not know what I was doing. And I don't mean, I don't know the techniques I was... I didn't understand why I was doing them and what purpose this technique served. And so at the end of the experience, I was able to do all these techniques, but I could never explain to you how they work or why you would use them, which I think was a strict opposite from Dr. [Hafto's 00:03:21] lab. There were a lot of techniques that I couldn't physically do, but I could explain to you how they worked and why you would use them. And to me, I think that's more important as a scientist.
Bethany Brookshire (03:33):
Learning specific techniques was important, but Trayvon needed more. He needed to know why they used those techniques in the first place, why they were important, and how they contributed to the research overall.
Trayvon Giles (03:43):
A lot of my training then depended on the postdoc I was working with. And I was just doing things because he said to do them, without really knowing how I was contributing to a project. There was no context involved.
Bethany Brookshire (03:59):
This idea of knowing the context of a project, it transferred to mentoring as well. Trayvon didn't just want a mentor who was in the background, available for questions if needed. He wanted his mentor to be present, to understand and reflect on Trayvon's experiences, and use that context to support him through his work.
Trayvon Giles (04:17):
To me, mentorship is really about learning how, or showing how your experiences and your story could help someone else along their journey. And so, to me, that's only useful if you yourself are able to take the context from your story, and apply it to a similar context to someone else.
Bethany Brookshire (04:39):
For some students, this is the kind of lab environment they wanted, where it's more individualistic and they're expected to work independently. But for Trayvon, he didn't feel known, and he wasn't sure of his place in the lab. His mentor wasn't as present compared to his previous labs. And overall, he didn't understand how this kind of environment could push him very far in his career.
Trayvon Giles (04:59):
If you don't have the context and experience, I don't think you'll be able to be a good mentor. But at the same time I think, too many people think they don't have enough context or enough experience to mentor. So it goes hand-in-hand. And so that was sort of why I didn't have a really good experience, and that's why I didn't go back. But I actually know someone else that joined his lab and had a great time. And so I think there is a fit that occurs. Like you have to be a certain type of person to fit, or have certain types of mentors. But overall, that was the main reason.
Bethany Brookshire (05:32):
This kind of environment didn't support Trayvon, but it worked for some of his peers. What's a negative experience for one person may not be for another. And the intent behind the mentorship doesn't necessarily dictate its impact. What's important is that students are empowered to identify when something isn't working for them, identify why that is, and what they need instead.
When students identify that something isn't working, they then have to make a choice, how will they respond to a negative situation? Anthony Keys from our previous episodes, told me about times he felt the need to respond to a negative mentoring experience. Particularly, when he noticed that some of his peers felt powerless as they dealt with negative situations. There was one moment when Anthony was in a group mentoring meeting, and he realized that the mentors in place were not truly acknowledging the needs of him and his peers.
Anthony Keys (06:26):
We were sitting around the table sharing stories. And one of the things that really stood out to me was, when you all hear someone who's in this position, and they say all the struggles they've gone through, and they're telling their story, and you're like, wow, they've gone through a lot. And then you hear that person use that as kind of a reason, like other people should be going through struggles as well to succeed. And you're like, "You've totally missed the mark."
Bethany Brookshire (06:53):
At one point, the students were giving constructive feedback on parts of their graduate programs they felt needed improvement. But for the most part, their ideas were dismissed.
Anthony Keys (07:02):
And we were proposing these ideas like, well, it might help graduate students if they had someone they could go to, to facilitate switching advisors during some... We don't have a program like that or something. And for the person in charge that you're talking to, to be like, "Well, I've gone through that, I've navigated that. And that's definitely something you'll learn on your own."
And it's like, "Okay, I understand that was a challenging thing for you, and we've all gone through our own challenges, but was it necessary?" And I think that's sort of the problem about, I've gone through challenges and it made who I am. But also understanding, I don't think other people need to be subjected to that.
Bethany Brookshire (07:44):
This mentor was drawing from their own experiences, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they assumed that their mentees needed to go through the exact same challenges, the exact same obstacles, if they wanted to succeed.
Anthony Keys (07:56):
I think those are the biggest areas where I've seen poor mentorship in terms of someone in administration who might not be closely related to a student going through that experience, saying, "Tough it out, or you'll get through it. And we don't need to change anything because it's worked for other people."
Bethany Brookshire (08:13):
This kind of mentoring assumes that any challenges students are facing are just part of growing as a scientist. Sometimes that may be true, but it denies the fact that maybe there are aspects of a program that aren't beneficial at all. When this happens, it can delay needed changes that would help students thrive more in their STEMM careers.
According to Anthony, this was the worst negative mentoring experience he had personally encountered. But he saw his peers experiencing even more negative situations with their mentors. And he felt like he was in a place where he could support them, and even respond on their behalf.
Anthony Keys (08:46):
Sometimes it's a pattern of behavior. And that's one of the things I think is really important, if you see it happening over and over again. I'm definitely a person who likes to make sure that the department, or the people around this professor are aware of what's happening. So I've definitely had to do that, where I've gone to the department and I've had to say, this is the third time a student was told... Or, this is another time where there's been problems that are... something is promised, but then taken away from a student.
So some people I want to go fighting for immediately, but they'll tell me whether they're even comfortable with me bringing it up with our PI. Especially, I feel like the most challenging is international students here in America, where their degree is basically what's holding them here. And a lot of them definitely want to stay in America. And even some of them might be fleeing from war torn countries and things like that.
And sometimes they'll tell me from their perspective, they're like, "This is nothing." And for me, of course, I see that it's also causing them pain and stuff. But if that person doesn't want me to go to bat for them, I definitely won't cross that line. Because I understand from their viewpoint that it might just cause more trouble for them.
Some people however, when I say I understand this is how they're treating you, and I don't think it's right. And if they agree with me and I tell them... I kind of plan with them. I'm like, "I feel like I want to do this." And normally, I go through a lot of scenarios with the person. I'm like, "Look, I can go talk to them face-to-face about this. I can send them an email. We can even tell the department what's happening."
And so things like that, where you see those little slides where a graduate student might feel powerless. You're like, oh, well it's one little thing. But sometimes if you broaden it to what's happening to everybody else, I feel like the department sometimes is able to step in. And I think that's what you would hope. Not all the time, but I feel like I've definitely always been someone who likes to make things clear. Like I see this, I see what you're doing and I am not comfortable with it.
So I think that's kind of my approach really, talking first to the person I feel is affected, and seeing what they're comfortable having me talk about, and what kinds of actions they either want to take with me or let me take on my own.
Bethany Brookshire (11:08):
Anthony's method is just one way that students can respond to a negative mentoring experience. Anthony was very aware of the situations going on around him. And he believed that if one student was struggling because of someone's negative behavior, it impacted everyone. Even if he held back from speaking out on the student's behalf, he provided something really valuable, camaraderie and companionship, that acknowledged how a negative mentoring situation was affecting students' work and wellbeing. He wanted them to know that they weren't alone and there was a way they could address this problem.
But here's the thing, responding to a negative mentoring experience can be tricky. Students may be afraid if they confront their mentor or the department, that their academics or career projection will be hurt. And putting all of the onus on students and postdocs to solve these tricky and sometimes scary situations, doesn't acknowledge the power structures that are often at play in the relationships, like we discussed two episodes ago.
One thing that I did not hear about as I spoke with students was sexual harassment, and I admit that I was surprised. A 2018 report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine, revealed high rates of sexual harassment in STEMM, particularly of students. The report notes that STEMM fields are often male dominated. And as we've been seeing in this podcast, there are often deep power imbalances between faculty and students. Those power structures might make younger scientists feel unsafe trying to combat their harassment.
It also notes, that sexual harassment is rarely reported. So I suppose that I should not have been surprised, that if it happened, no one said anything. No one should ever feel pressured to have to reveal those negative interactions. It's the sort of mentoring interaction that no one should ever have to go through. And so I wanted to find out how can we prevent negative mentoring experiences, all negative mentoring experiences from happening in the first place?
In our episode about Setting Expectations and Boundaries, Dr. Andrew Sabelhaus told me about the mentoring groups he facilitated, and how within the group, they set guidelines to ensure that he and his students knew how to respect and support each other. This open and transparent communication was important to Dr. Sabelhaus, because for him, it could prevent a negative mentoring experience, similar to ones he had previously been through.
Dr. Andrew Sabelhaus (13:34):
I think the few times, luckily, the few times that mentors have let me down a little bit, have mostly been related to either areas where they didn't necessarily know how to solve the problem, and so kind of stepped back from it, when it would've been much more beneficial for someone to come in and help me out. To have another set of brains, trying to solve a new problem in some way. Or, things that are related to priorities, where faculty members or graduate students in particular, have very firm priorities that really do not include making sure that a student goes and graduates, or really not making sure that a student goes and gets a particular type of job.
Bethany Brookshire (14:25):
Dr. Sabelhaus had moments where his mentors weren't always there for him when he needed the extra support. Or, they just didn't have the right priorities when it came to helping him succeed. He also noticed that negative mentoring experiences can happen during mentoring group sessions, where things may be said in a way that's offensive. Or, in a way where someone just doesn't feel understood or seen. So as he took on new roles as a mentor, he developed a method to approach this.
Dr. Andrew Sabelhaus (14:49):
So I have successfully deployed any number of this kind of standard setting, community agreements, expectations types of things with groups of different sizes. What they all revolve around is this process of coming up with a list of guidelines, rules, how we expect to talk to each other, interact with each other, that is uniquely defined by input from everyone. Some of these things are for example, consider who's speaking, and let a person finish their thought. It's kind of odd to think about saying that explicitly in a student group, or in a group of undergraduate researchers. But it can be part of a conversation about how people are treated and inclusion. Because this has specifically arisen in the context before of, for example, men speaking over women, and some of these things about sexism that occur.
We've talked a lot about things like, one time, the students suggested something about tone as something that they would like. Where it would be a variation on the idea of respect for each other. And we had a nice conversation about another student saying, "Hey, well, you know, tone is a great way to invalidate the input of, for example, women." Traditionally speaking, that comes with a lot of extra stuff.
And we ended up agreeing on a different type of terminology for our community standards and community agreements. And I think everybody felt really fantastic after that, because we were able to talk about it, and I helped facilitate this very, very carefully. We were able to talk about it in a way that it was a learning experience, it was not accusing a person, it was critiquing an idea and coming up with an alternative. And it was very empowering. I found these community standards things to be very empowering for teams, even though it can be a little bit monotonous for folks who really aren't used to it, or maybe engineers who don't like this as much.
Bethany Brookshire (16:48):
This idea of community standards doesn't just pertain to mentoring groups. At the beginning of any mentoring relationship, mentees and mentors can discuss how they interact with each other, what their priorities are, and what they expect of each other. Mentors can help to prevent a negative experience by also considering their mentee as a whole being, like considering their whole identity, and how it may affect their STEMM experience.
We're actually going to be exploring that idea more in the next episode. And along with the holistic mentoring approach, mentors can also support their students by acknowledging the power they hold, and be vulnerable enough to recognize when that power can cause harm, even if unintentionally.
No mentoring relationship is going to perfect. Even if things are done to prevent them, even if mentees and mentors establish mentoring compacts and transparently communicate, conflict can still happen. But what's important is that a negative mentoring relationship should never constitute the end of a student's STEMM career.
I wanted to go back to Dr. Jeremie [Wisdom's 00:17:53] story from our last episode. In graduate school, Dr. Wisdom's relationship with her advisor really struggled. Her advisor never got to know her, and he made up a narrative in his head about who he thought she should be. In the process, he demeaned Dr. Wisdom's self-worth, and left her feeling miserable and unsure of how to move forward.
Dr. Jeremie Wisdom (18:13):
And for me, I was high functioning and depressed. So I looked fine to everyone, but I was internally struggling.
Bethany Brookshire (18:22):
Unfortunately, Dr. Wisdom couldn't change advisors, and she didn't want to stop the program. She had worked so hard to get there, and nothing would stop her from earning her PhD, but it wasn't easy.
Dr. Jeremie Wisdom (18:33):
And so then my strategy became, well, how do I deal with the negative aspects of this relationship, so that they don't negatively impact me? And it was a full life change for me, from going to counseling, being more invested in my community and connecting with people. Talking more about my experience and not hiding how I was feeling, or what I was dealing with. And eating better, working out. I did yoga, I would just walk and read, and write on my phone sometimes, just like walking around campus, and getting some Florida sunshine and light, and changing my mood. But yeah, it was a full life change that helped me cope with the environment. We always talk about it being a chilly climate, and we don't really talk about what that looks like to a student, right? It looks awful.
Bethany Brookshire (19:36):
As the doctor testifies, Dr. Wisdom did go on to earn her PhD in civil engineering. But after she graduated, she still felt stuck. And it was in this time, she really relied on one of her other mentors. She told us about this moment in the first episode of this season. The moment where her mentor guided her to discover what she was truly passionate about. This support helped her realize that effective mentoring can truly lead students to success. She saw the engineering field as sometimes a cold environment, and she wanted to provide room for other students to be honest about their experiences, the positive, negative, and everything in between.
Dr. Jeremie Wisdom (20:12):
I think that graduate students are conditioned to only talk about the positive aspects of their experience. And that's just part of the culture of graduate school. We don't talk about all of our failed experiences, or all of our failed experiments. Or, that paper that didn't get accepted, or that conference that we couldn't go to because we didn't have funding, or... We don't talk about any of that.
Bethany Brookshire (20:47):
Dr. Wisdom started research in mentoring, and she found something really compelling.
Dr. Jeremie Wisdom (20:51):
So the research that I've been doing lately, has been centered around critical mentoring. And it leverages critical theory and focuses on centering the voice of the mentee in the process. And one of the things that it talks about is that, we really need more narratives, right? We need to be collecting stories from people's experiences, so that people can find themselves in the research. They can find themselves in the mentoring programs. And they can find the support that they need to be successful.
Bethany Brookshire (21:34):
Dr. Wisdom is right. We need people's stories, so that if you've ever gone through a negative mentoring experience, you know that you're not alone. That's the aim of The Science of Mentorship Podcast, to hear and reflect on these stories, so we can understand what mentoring skills we should be learning, to facilitate the most effective mentoring relationships. Because every student deserves the chance to excel in STEMM, no matter their background or experience.
Speaking of background and experience, sometimes, these things play a really big role in a student's STEMM career. So in our next episode, we're going to be hearing from students about their identities, and what it means for effective mentoring to consider identity as part of the mentorship process. Until then, you can learn more about The Science of Effective Mentoring in STEMM at nas.edu/mentoring.
If you're enjoying The Science of Mentorship, please tell your friends, colleagues, students, teachers, and of course, your mentors and mentees about our podcast. And help others discover it by giving us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Thanks for listening.

SOM-Negative PT2-Final Transcript

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